Leave your attitude at home
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I think the worst people I've run into are the "Rich gringos" or pretenders to that. They snub and talk down, wonder why everybody doesn't speak english, actually very tight with their money, never freaking happy while on holiday, you can see the look, I know you can. These people piss me off so bad and it really takes alot to piss me off. The mexicans I've met through my 34 years of traveling in mexico have been nothing more than humble, grateful, hospitable,and helpful (the list of adjectives can go on and on). When I was in the navy way back in the early 70's I used to live on the beach 150 miles south of TJ almost every weekend. The couple who lived on that particular part of the beach had nothing, yet abuela would make us fresh totillas, beans and salsa every morning, and when I was discharged they roasted a goat. Every chance I had I would bring them aspirin, penicillin, soft drinks and american beef ( a real treat for them ). We just take too much for granted and they are grateful for what they have.OUCH, just fell off my soapbox, sorry for carring on so.
Re:Leave your attitude at home
chuck, other than going to mexico for 34 years, (10 years for us ) everything you said is bang on. the people you are talking about also complain that there are to many mexican restaurants, and not enough english t.v. stations as well. why bother going away?
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funinthesun
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Saying "buenos dias" and calling people by their first name goes a long, long way....As for the Canadians my wife and I have met, they have been delightful! It's been some of my fellow Americans that have been insufferable. We always call them down on it too when it happens. I remind them that if they had been born there it would be THEM serving tables, etc....Frankly, I believe the people in PV are better than us...More humble, kinder....gracious....
Re:Leave your attitude at home
thanks for the kind words on us canadians. ( vancouver for us ) this may be true but last time in p.v. we met 3 families all from the states and hung out together all the time. we are still in contact with them. they were from N. Carolina, New York city, and just outside of Chicago. i think you get good and bad people from all over the place.
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jubilee
Re:Leave your attitude at home
torcan (Apr 12, 2004 01:53 p.m.):
Nothing worse than a bunch of tourists bringing their holier than thou attitude to PV. Remember, you are a guest at the whim of the Mexican Government. There is nothing more disgusting or tasteless as someone who arrives in PV thinking that what goes back home is totally acceptable down in Mexico. I have been visiting Mexico now for about 10 years straight, and it bewilders me to see tourists giving people a hard time. Things are not the same here, people struggle just like at home, except their means of attaining the "Brass Ring" is not as easily attainable as some tourists have it. If your room is not as it was sold to you, don't blame the Mexicans, blame the Travel agency, or the Tour Operator that sold it to you. Chances are, they pushed it in order to sell you on it, knowing that once you were here, you couldn't do much. Treat people the way you want to be treated, and say Gracias, once in a while, it goes a long way.
just wanted to bring your post back to the top. It neeeds to be said over and over again.
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Chiripiorco
Re:Leave your attitude at home
I just moved here a few weeks ago from Northern California and I have noticed this filthy superior attitude that american tourists bring even since the first day I arrived! We should be thankful that we are even able to visit this place so easily because as you know it is quite difficult for Mexicans to get into the U.S. even for a visit. Then when we arrive we start throwing our high and mighty American weight around as if we are even wanted here? Puerto Vallarta would be just fine if not better off without Tourism believe it or not. and another thing.....contrary to popular belief most people in other countries could really give a s*** about the united states and our all powerful economy and military machine, so don't think that just because america is successful by its own standards, it gives you any sort of special distinction among other societies. This rant will self destruct in 5....4...3..2.1!! (BOOM)
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jkbe
Re:Leave your attitude at home
First off, I agree that when you are in another country you should blend in as much as possible. That is why when I am in Mexico, I try and at least ask for things in Spainish.
Let me just say that getting into Mexico is easy for Americans because we leave when we say we are. It is hard for Mexicans to get into the US, because they do not leave. As a resident of Southern California for the last 30 years. I have seen an increase in the traffice, longer waits in emergency rooms, higher state taxes, higher crime, all because this State has a problem with illegal immigration.
Sorry this is a hot button issue, here right now and I could not help myself.
Let me just say that getting into Mexico is easy for Americans because we leave when we say we are. It is hard for Mexicans to get into the US, because they do not leave. As a resident of Southern California for the last 30 years. I have seen an increase in the traffice, longer waits in emergency rooms, higher state taxes, higher crime, all because this State has a problem with illegal immigration.
Sorry this is a hot button issue, here right now and I could not help myself.
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Hi Chiripiorco,
Just pulling myself out of the ashes of your "rant explosion". I agree, in principal, with the things you say. But, I'm a little less extreme. I am an American who has probably spent about 60 or 70 weeks in PV over the past three to four years. I have certainly seen my share of "ugly" American tourists in PV, but for every ugly American tourist there are dozens of nice American tourists happily enjoying their vacations. The two big industries in PV are tourism and construction. One industry fuels the other, so if you take away one industry the other would suffer. Puerto Vallarta would still be a nice place without tourism, but it would be much smaller.
You are 100% correct about the disparity between Americans visiting Mexico and Mexicans visiting the U.S. An American simply has to fill out his Mexican FM-T tourist permit, have the necessary I.D., pay his $20 (usually included in the airfaire ticket) and he is almost guaranteed to be able to enter Mexico: no visa is required. In contrast, the Mexican must have a visa to enter the U.S. This entails going to a U.S. embassy or consulate in Mexico to make an appointment, paying about $100 USD, returning to the embassy/consulate at the appointed time for an interview, and then waiting for the delivery of the visa. During the interview, the Mexican might be asked to demonstrate that he has sufficient funds in his bank account to support his travels. He may also be asked to show identification of where he works so that the U.S. interviewer gets the warm, fuzzy feeling that the Mexican traveler will exit the U.S. before his I-94 U.S. Immigration permit expires. The kicker to the whole deal is that if the Mexican is denied a U.S. visa, he also forfeits that $100 USD that he paid.
Whether Mexicans admire or desire the American lifestyle is certainly a subject for heated debate. My own experiences suggest that Mexicans would like to see some changes in their country; like a stronger economy, better schools, less corruption, more personal security, etc. But, most Mexicans would rather live as Mexicans, in Mexico. They are proud of their own culture as everyone should be. When Mexican workers illegally enter the US, they are usually doing so to earn money to better support their families back in Mexico. Every illegal Mexican worker that I have ever spoken with, about 30 in total, has no desire to permanently immigrate to American. He wants to save up money for his eventual return to Mexico where he will build a nice house and/or open his own small business. In this regard, the U.S. still plays a key role in his future plans.
As the two large countries of Mexico and the U.S. share a common border and are big trading partners, what goes in the U.S. has a big impact on life in Mexico. In Mexico, I have been surprized at times when I would meet someone who has probably never held an American dollar in his hand, yet he could tell me the current dollar-to-peso exchange rate. Like it or not, their lifestyle is often tagged to the fluctuations of this exchange rate. The payback for many home mortgages in Mexico, although in pesos, is gauged against the U.S. dollar: if there is a big devaluation of the Mexican peso, the amount of money (in pesos) that they owe to the bank goes up drastically. Since they are paid in pesos and not dollars, this has a significant effect on their lives. A couple of years ago, I bought a house in Mexico for my mother-in-law. At the time, there was some discussion of another peso devaluation and you can bet that the builder had a clause in the sales contract which said the house price would go significantly up if the peso lost significant ground against the dollar. I was really paying cash in U.S. dollars, so a peso devaluation and subsequent peso increase in the house price would not have affected me nearly as much as someone fully emerged into a peso economy. Many imported products are immediately affected by this peso-dollar interaction, as well.
Another event that I remember was when G. W. Bush was trying to gather international support before the attack on Iraq. Mexican President Fox, who was in the process of courting several countries for increased international trade with Mexico, told Bush that he could not voice his support for an attack. The event made some headlines in the U.S., but there was a lot of fear circulating around Mexico that Bush might enact big trade sanctions against Mexico as a punishment. Aside from the actual war issues at hand, some Mexicans were wondering if Fox had made the right decision in his non-support.
I remember a Mexican who once pointed out the relatively small size of the Mexican military to me. I asked him whether this worried him. He said no, because as nosey neighbors, the U.S. military would jump in and crush anyone that ever attacked Mexico. It's was just a joke, of course, but wouldn't you feel more secure if you were good friends with the biggest guy in the schoolyard?
So, I guess the whole point to my little rant is: Mexicans often do care about the all powerful economy and military machine of the U.S. But, as you suggest they also don't spend every waking hour wondering how they can be "just like an American". They have their own proud heritage. However, maybe it is a big fault of many of us Americans that we don't have as much knowledge about other peoples and cultures as we should.
Sorry if I offended anyone by my statements. This rant will also self-destruct in 5....4...3..2.1!! (BOOM)
Just pulling myself out of the ashes of your "rant explosion"
. I agree, in principal, with the things you say. But, I'm a little less extreme. I am an American who has probably spent about 60 or 70 weeks in PV over the past three to four years. I have certainly seen my share of "ugly" American tourists in PV, but for every ugly American tourist there are dozens of nice American tourists happily enjoying their vacations. The two big industries in PV are tourism and construction. One industry fuels the other, so if you take away one industry the other would suffer. Puerto Vallarta would still be a nice place without tourism, but it would be much smaller.You are 100% correct about the disparity between Americans visiting Mexico and Mexicans visiting the U.S. An American simply has to fill out his Mexican FM-T tourist permit, have the necessary I.D., pay his $20 (usually included in the airfaire ticket) and he is almost guaranteed to be able to enter Mexico: no visa is required. In contrast, the Mexican must have a visa to enter the U.S. This entails going to a U.S. embassy or consulate in Mexico to make an appointment, paying about $100 USD, returning to the embassy/consulate at the appointed time for an interview, and then waiting for the delivery of the visa. During the interview, the Mexican might be asked to demonstrate that he has sufficient funds in his bank account to support his travels. He may also be asked to show identification of where he works so that the U.S. interviewer gets the warm, fuzzy feeling that the Mexican traveler will exit the U.S. before his I-94 U.S. Immigration permit expires. The kicker to the whole deal is that if the Mexican is denied a U.S. visa, he also forfeits that $100 USD that he paid.
Whether Mexicans admire or desire the American lifestyle is certainly a subject for heated debate. My own experiences suggest that Mexicans would like to see some changes in their country; like a stronger economy, better schools, less corruption, more personal security, etc. But, most Mexicans would rather live as Mexicans, in Mexico. They are proud of their own culture as everyone should be. When Mexican workers illegally enter the US, they are usually doing so to earn money to better support their families back in Mexico. Every illegal Mexican worker that I have ever spoken with, about 30 in total, has no desire to permanently immigrate to American. He wants to save up money for his eventual return to Mexico where he will build a nice house and/or open his own small business. In this regard, the U.S. still plays a key role in his future plans.
As the two large countries of Mexico and the U.S. share a common border and are big trading partners, what goes in the U.S. has a big impact on life in Mexico. In Mexico, I have been surprized at times when I would meet someone who has probably never held an American dollar in his hand, yet he could tell me the current dollar-to-peso exchange rate. Like it or not, their lifestyle is often tagged to the fluctuations of this exchange rate. The payback for many home mortgages in Mexico, although in pesos, is gauged against the U.S. dollar: if there is a big devaluation of the Mexican peso, the amount of money (in pesos) that they owe to the bank goes up drastically. Since they are paid in pesos and not dollars, this has a significant effect on their lives. A couple of years ago, I bought a house in Mexico for my mother-in-law. At the time, there was some discussion of another peso devaluation and you can bet that the builder had a clause in the sales contract which said the house price would go significantly up if the peso lost significant ground against the dollar. I was really paying cash in U.S. dollars, so a peso devaluation and subsequent peso increase in the house price would not have affected me nearly as much as someone fully emerged into a peso economy. Many imported products are immediately affected by this peso-dollar interaction, as well.
Another event that I remember was when G. W. Bush was trying to gather international support before the attack on Iraq. Mexican President Fox, who was in the process of courting several countries for increased international trade with Mexico, told Bush that he could not voice his support for an attack. The event made some headlines in the U.S., but there was a lot of fear circulating around Mexico that Bush might enact big trade sanctions against Mexico as a punishment. Aside from the actual war issues at hand, some Mexicans were wondering if Fox had made the right decision in his non-support.
I remember a Mexican who once pointed out the relatively small size of the Mexican military to me. I asked him whether this worried him. He said no, because as nosey neighbors, the U.S. military would jump in and crush anyone that ever attacked Mexico. It's was just a joke, of course, but wouldn't you feel more secure if you were good friends with the biggest guy in the schoolyard?
So, I guess the whole point to my little rant is: Mexicans often do care about the all powerful economy and military machine of the U.S. But, as you suggest they also don't spend every waking hour wondering how they can be "just like an American". They have their own proud heritage. However, maybe it is a big fault of many of us Americans that we don't have as much knowledge about other peoples and cultures as we should.
Sorry if I offended anyone by my statements. This rant will also self-destruct in 5....4...3..2.1!! (BOOM)
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Hi jkbe,
After watching the news from California, I can understand your frustrations with the illegal immigration problem. The whole complex problem of illegal Mexican immigration to the U.S. is interesting because it's not a completely black and white issue (other than the fact that U.S. law is clearly being broken):
1. They take away jobs, but their presence here creates some new ones.
2. If you remove them all from the U.S., part of the invisible infrastructure of our daily lives will go also: construction, landscaping, retail food sales, agriculture, etc.
3. Their increasing numbers create a strain on city services, but they have paid for these services (like you and I) through property taxes: auto and property (included in their rent).
4. Through property taxes, they pay for police services, yet they may be afraid to call the police due to their immigration status.
5. They (and their employers) pay into the U.S. Social Security system through their wages, yet they will never collect a penny in benefits because they used a falsified SSN for employment.
6. They pay federal income tax through their wages, yet most will never collect the tax refunds they are due because they never filled the tax forms and used a falsified SSN for employment.
7. If they did want to legally immigrate to the U.S., they would generally find that the U.S. Department of State is still processing Mexican permanent visa applications from 1991 and 1992 (due to federally mandated immigration quotas, not because the State Dept. works that slowly). Thus, it may be ten years, or more, before the U.S. Department of Immigration can get the "go-ahead" to complete the immigration paperwork.
But this is only a basic list of comments. There are certainly a lot more issues involved: some good and some not so good.
After watching the news from California, I can understand your frustrations with the illegal immigration problem. The whole complex problem of illegal Mexican immigration to the U.S. is interesting because it's not a completely black and white issue (other than the fact that U.S. law is clearly being broken):
1. They take away jobs, but their presence here creates some new ones.
2. If you remove them all from the U.S., part of the invisible infrastructure of our daily lives will go also: construction, landscaping, retail food sales, agriculture, etc.
3. Their increasing numbers create a strain on city services, but they have paid for these services (like you and I) through property taxes: auto and property (included in their rent).
4. Through property taxes, they pay for police services, yet they may be afraid to call the police due to their immigration status.
5. They (and their employers) pay into the U.S. Social Security system through their wages, yet they will never collect a penny in benefits because they used a falsified SSN for employment.
6. They pay federal income tax through their wages, yet most will never collect the tax refunds they are due because they never filled the tax forms and used a falsified SSN for employment.
7. If they did want to legally immigrate to the U.S., they would generally find that the U.S. Department of State is still processing Mexican permanent visa applications from 1991 and 1992 (due to federally mandated immigration quotas, not because the State Dept. works that slowly). Thus, it may be ten years, or more, before the U.S. Department of Immigration can get the "go-ahead" to complete the immigration paperwork.
But this is only a basic list of comments. There are certainly a lot more issues involved: some good and some not so good.
Re:Leave your attitude at home
I think everyone should go see Un Dia Sin Mexicanos when it comes out to the theater near you, it should be pretty eye opening, especially to residents in California.
" Puerto Vallarta would be just fine if not better off without Tourism believe it or not."
I can say that statement is very untrue as there is not much of a local job market with exception to tourism. Very little agriculture, no fabrication or industrial jobs. Without tourism, I would say the vast majority of the working people of Vallarta would be jobless.
" Puerto Vallarta would be just fine if not better off without Tourism believe it or not."
I can say that statement is very untrue as there is not much of a local job market with exception to tourism. Very little agriculture, no fabrication or industrial jobs. Without tourism, I would say the vast majority of the working people of Vallarta would be jobless.
Re:Leave your attitude at home
How did this thread become a rant between the US and Mexico and immigration.?
Let's leave the politics out of it and stick to the Attitude . Leave your attitude at home, and enjoy your vacation. Don't try to compare, or gives reasons why economies depend on each other. Just treat people kindly, and remember that you are a guest.
Just my 2 pesos
Let's leave the politics out of it and stick to the Attitude . Leave your attitude at home, and enjoy your vacation. Don't try to compare, or gives reasons why economies depend on each other. Just treat people kindly, and remember that you are a guest.
Just my 2 pesos
Re:Leave your attitude at home
2 pesos well spent, EarlyRetire!
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Chiripiorco
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Well, I must say I feel a bit sheepish for losing sight of the ENTIRE FOCUS of the discussion, and damn I guess I was wrong about tourism and economy and all that crap too!! Im just a boy who left the US to get away from the whole American attitude and to absorb myself into the warm beautiful atmosphere and culture that defines Puerto Vallarta, I'm sure you all know exactly what it is that I am talking about. So it looks like I've got WORK TO DO! aila nos vemos amigos
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Charlieb
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Just one question, Chiripiorco. Since you felt the need to leave the USA and the US attitude behind, did you also give up your US citizenship? Just wondering . Chuck
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Let's be a bit more respectful of other people's opinions and not think that just because they criticise their country they are suddenly not worthy of being a citizen of that country... The US would never have become what it is in terms of being an example in it's democratic structure and ideals [that may currently subject to debate (Patriot Act I & II, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, etc.) but that is another subject] if it hadn't had dissenters in its history. So if you can't tolerate dissenters, maybe you are the one not worthy of your country (just pulling your leg to see if you can tone it down...) Anyway, let's be e bit more open and not get personal to that point.
Greetings
Mogens
(just pulling your leg to see if you can tone it down...) Anyway, let's be e bit more open and not get personal to that point.Greetings
Mogens
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randyintucson
- PV Fanatic
- Posts:175
- Joined:Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:21 pm
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Hello Mogens,
I am wandering if you are a Brit or a Canadien. I see many mispellings or typos, and I am sure I am guilty too, but the criticise leads me to ask that question. Not trying to be nosy, just curious.
I am wandering if you are a Brit or a Canadien. I see many mispellings or typos, and I am sure I am guilty too, but the criticise leads me to ask that question. Not trying to be nosy, just curious.
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randyintucson
- PV Fanatic
- Posts:175
- Joined:Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:21 pm
Re:Leave your attitude at home
I am wondering if this was a subconcious double post.
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randyintucson
- PV Fanatic
- Posts:175
- Joined:Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:21 pm
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Or, if you might be a Canadian. Apologies, everyone. Although now it seems that I have no problems with double posting.
Re:Leave your attitude at home
Criticise is correctly spelled (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary - where they also state: Written also, more analogically, but less commonly, criticize)... so it's not a mistake or typo... but just FYI, I was born in Chile, am a Danish citizen and live in Mexico, married to Johanna, who's from Venezuela, just had a son recently, can imagine the mix he'll be . All my school years I went to English schools so, I write in the original English when I remember to get it right, so for me honour and harbour are correctly spelled. BTW, subconcious (which you used in one of your posts, not a dupe!!) is written subconscious, and you alse say "I am wandering" when I imagine you wanted to say "wondering"... What country in Europe are you from? You sound sort of German to me... 
Kind regards,
Mogens
. All my school years I went to English schools so, I write in the original English when I remember to get it right, so for me honour and harbour are correctly spelled. BTW, subconcious (which you used in one of your posts, not a dupe!!) is written subconscious, and you alse say "I am wandering" when I imagine you wanted to say "wondering"... What country in Europe are you from? You sound sort of German to me... Kind regards,
Mogens
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sernia
Re:Leave your attitude at home
I agree with all your quotes!!
<moderator edit>
Canadians may be cheap, but we have a kick a$$, attitude... friendly and respectable.
<moderator edit>
OHH and pay money to watch the movie from Michael Moore...... "PROUD TO BE CANADIAN" after watching that embarrsing movie!!!
<moderator edit>
Canadians may be cheap, but we have a kick a$$, attitude... friendly and respectable.
<moderator edit>
OHH and pay money to watch the movie from Michael Moore...... "PROUD TO BE CANADIAN" after watching that embarrsing movie!!!
